Joe O'Rourke co-founded Forum3 and the dGen Network, leveraging his sales and marketing background to breathe fresh life into customer engagement channels. His biggest project to date, the Starbucks Web3 loyalty program, is testimony to his innovative thinking. Joe's passion for community building and digital ownership provides a fresh perspective on reimagining customer loyalty. Recorded on June 7, 2023 for Crypto Packaged Goods Genius Call series.
Explore the hidden opportunities and overcome the challenges of loyalty programs and customer engagement to cultivate a fiercely devoted customer base that will be your business's biggest asset.
In this episode, you will be able to:
In this episode, you will be able to:
"Loyalty is now becoming something the brand owes to the customer." - Joe O'Rourke
Follow Joe at https://twitter.com/BunchuBets
Follow Club CPG at https://twitter.com/CPGCLUB
00:00:08
Welcome to Crypto Podcast Goods, the audio home for Club CPG. This week, Joe O'Rourke, co founder of Forum Three and Dgen Network, takes CPG COO Mikey Piro on his journey to to Web Three and the launch of Starbucks Odyssey platform. The two go deep on the current state of the collector's market and look to the future of loyalty programs. As a reminder, the hosts of CPG Pop and their guests are not registered investment advisors. All opinions are of the hosts and guests alone.
00:00:47
Nothing discussed today should be treated as investment advice and all content from our genius calls is solely for informational and entertainment purposes only. Now let's get to that genius call. GMGM we are back. Hello Club CPG community. It has been too long, but we are going to have an amazing show for you today.
00:01:11
There's been a ton of hype around Starbucks and around what has been accomplished. There a major brand participating in Web. Three and it is my pleasure to introduce to you Joe O'Rourke who also goes by Bunchu. Joe is a community builder and a Web Three strategist who co founded Form. Three and the Dgen Network.
00:01:31
He advises entrepreneurs in Web Three and crypto. And even without technical background, he's there for folks that really want to get involved. His company, Form Three, helps companies as a strategic partner to design, build and. Execute Web Three projects. And their goal is to create mass onboarding events into crypto.
00:01:50
And I think they've done a really great job at that. And their most important and probably most prominent project that we'll talk about today is the Starbucks Web Three loyalty program. Joe, thank you so much for coming onto the show. We've got an exciting set of questions here. How are you doing this morning?
00:02:06
GM? Thank you so much for having me. I'm super excited about this. I was actually a member of CPG when Y'all launched back last year. So this is super exciting.
00:02:19
Full circle for me. Well, thank you for your participation. Thanks for joining us. We're going to dive right into what we normally ask for, folks, is like, where did you get started in Web Three? You started your career on the sales and marketing side and it was kind.
00:02:37
Of an adjacent field. What was the moment for you that. You sort of like picked up on it and progressed? Yeah, my story into being full time in Web Three is actually really unique. It's very kind of atypical results, not typical, don't try this at home type of stuff.
00:02:59
So I actually got into the Crypto space back in 2017 and I came in through a sports betting background and at the time it was not a regulated industry like it is today. And if you wanted to dabble in it, you had to kind of go off of these random offshore type of places and so they were only taking bitcoin as deposits. So that's actually what got me into Bitcoin, and today is just past my 6th year. So I had first gotten in in May of 2017, and at that time on Coinbase, it was bitcoin, ethereum and litecoin and you got all your news from Reddit and that was it. But I fell down the rabbit hole and from there it was really interesting.
00:03:53
In 2018 I started kind of creating my own content, so I started a podcast called Wrecked Podcast. It was a crypto related show and I'd been doing that ever since. And then in 2019 I first found NFTs and I'd also had a physical collecting background, as you can kind of see behind me. I have some things there, but I came from a physical collecting background as well. So I immediately saw value in digital ownership, right?
00:04:30
So it was something that struck a nerve with me right away and I got really interested in it and I kind of never looked back from there. And then fast forward to kind of the NFT boom. In 2021 we pivoted our crypto podcast to focus more on NFTs, and at that time we also launched Dgen Network. So Djen Network is kind of a media company full of different Web Three shows. I host my podcast there.
00:05:03
And at the time though, I was very much into Play to earn gaming, and I was tweeting about Play to earn gaming all the time. I was into Axio Infinity, and through that I actually got an invite to Drew Austin's house, who some of you may know. He's a co founder of a project called Knights of Dgen. He's a VC in the space as well. And he invited me to his house for a retreat.
00:05:32
And at the time I was still working my full time medical sales job. And like you'd mentioned, I'm sales and marketing background. No real technical chops. And when he invited me, I saw the guest list and it was all these people that at the time I felt like I didn't belong in the same room as. And so I was like, yeah Drew, I'll be there.
00:05:54
What weekend is it? And he's like, oh no, it's Tuesday. And I'm like, oh no. Believe it or not, the Friday prior I quit my job and I quit my job to go to Drew's house. And that was the only way I could make it if I didn't.
00:06:12
And so at Drew's house, I actually met Adam Brotman, who if you don't know who Adam is, he's the former Chief Digital Officer of Starbucks, former President of J crew, and him and I hit it off immediately at Drew's house. And that's kind of how Forum Three got started. The next two weeks later, him and I were working together and a couple of weeks after that, Forum Three was started. So it's kind of this very weird, unique entry into full time in the space. I took a big risk bet on myself and so far it's worked out pretty good.
00:06:48
Amazing. What immediately came to mind in this. Thread of you have folks that are. Collectors like yourself, which is really this digital collection is such an important vein. I think that runs through people's lives.
00:07:04
And then in the digital sense, it's much easier to show those collections. And I think we're going to dive into that more. I had more of a random question is like, do you remember the best. Bitcoin bet you ever made when you were sports gambling? And what was know, actually the best.
00:07:20
Thing I did was every week after I was placing some wagers, I would actually pull all the funds out and let them sit in coinbase. And that was at the time where bitcoin was running through. Yeah, exactly. It was on the run to like 3000, which was at the time all time high. And so by doing that and kind of watching my number go up, I was like, oh, maybe I should learn about what this stuff actually is.
00:07:50
And that's what kind of sent me down the rabbit hole. So it wasn't necessarily the bet that I made, it was the fact that I would pull the funds out, let them sit in coinbase. And the fact that my money was turning into more money got me learning about the technology, what was behind it. And as soon as I did, I was hooked. Totally.
00:08:10
And you don't have to sweat an outcome of a game. This just worked. That's exactly right. In the current market, that wouldn't necessarily be the move. But yeah, at the time it's pretty fantastic to just be like, I only won $25, but I put it here and now it's 50.
00:08:25
Now it's 50, yeah, exactly. Totally. And then what do you physically collect? Yeah, so I was a huge, obviously sports fan. So sports cards, memorabilia, all kinds of cool stuff like that.
00:08:40
This soda bottle behind me, actually my grandmother bought it for me. I'm a Penn State University Alum, and so I'm a huge Penn State football fan. And that soda bottle is a collaboration of like Penn State and Coca Cola when they won the national championship the year I was born, which was 1986. So just cool stuff like that. And then these shoes are the Artifact Fuocious collab, which was pretty cool.
00:09:08
And then I have a bunch of other cool sports stuff and sports cards. Actually I have right next to me my Babe Ruth signed baseball, which is pretty cool. That's probably my amazing. Yeah, that's probably my coolest collectible possession. And I won that during COVID on like $180 raffle.
00:09:32
So it's got like an extra story behind it too. I came from Sandlock quote in here somewhere. Totally, absolutely. And so yeah, I had a physical sports mostly sports was the stuff I was collecting. But now I'm into sneakers, I'm into art, I'm into all kinds of stuff like that.
00:09:52
Now through web Three, which is pretty cool. Before we move back into the Web Three, I just want to highlight at. The time of recording this episode, army is going to play Penn State tomorrow in lacrosse. I am an army lacrosse player. I was oh, no way.
00:10:12
So we are going to do a wager. We'll think of one by the end of this, but we're going to put some friendly wagers, some Twitter stuff out there. Yeah, it's the semi finals of the NCAA Tournament. I know Penn State sports just I mean, everybody knows Penn State football, but. It'S just been such a cool just.
00:10:36
Program to follow from. They've had such a come up in a lot of different sports in the years. You know, when I was in college, there the hockey program, which is now vying for Frozen Four every year. They were a club team when I was there, which is pretty crazy. So it's cool to watch your programs progress.
00:10:55
And I'm sure you feel the same about, especially if you were part of a team, which is pretty cool. Yeah, 100%.
00:11:04
Figure out that way because I'm definitely down. All right, great. I don't know that I'll put well, we could put a little bitcoin on it, maybe. I don't know. We'll figure something out.
00:11:14
But let's dive into so you quit. Your job, you met up with Drew. And then now Forum Three is starting. Let's talk about the early days of that. What was the premise of Forum Three and how did you get to that premise with Drew?
00:11:33
And again, through the eyes of a founder, you meet your co founder, you're excited, and you've got The World is Your Oyster. How did you vector down into what. Is your focus going to be for Forum Three? Yeah, so it's interesting whose house we were at. It's Adam Brotman, who's my co founder and when we met there.
00:11:55
So I ended up going to Drew's with this focus of kind of teaching them my experience with play to earn gaming, and specifically at the time, Axie Infinity, which was just this massive thing that was happening at the time. And so as Adam and I started talking that night, we obviously had this very interesting shared thesis on play to earn gaming. And so we actually came out of that with these really interesting thoughts about why we liked play to earn gaming, what it meant, and why it was broken in the current state. Right. So if you remember, if you were around in 2021 with Axio Infinity, it had this incredible come up.
00:12:45
And then obviously kind of the air came out of the balloon a little bit. And when we were really digging into that, it was all about how the economy was structured. And so at the time, it was really easy to see for us that that type of ecosystem was super extractive, meaning the users were the ones funding the ecosystem. Right. They were buying assets and those assets were returning a token.
00:13:16
That token had a monetary value and people were kind of always rushing to ROI, right? They wanted to get out what they at least put in and then try to profit off of that. And the way those structures were set up, that is not a functioning economy, right? But so we were super interested in part of those tokenomics. And our original thesis was, well, what if you take these kind of play to earn mechanics and apply them to a brand or an entity that actually has power to fund and back one of these ecosystems, right, where it's not extractive, meaning the user is not buying in and funding that whole ecosystem.
00:14:00
It can actually be funded by a brand, and that brand has clout and collectibility and things like that. And what would that kind of ecosystem look like? And then specifically that turned into a focus around loyalty programs, which obviously, if you know Adam's background at all, he was the chief Digital officer of Starbucks. So him and his team created the original Starbucks rewards app and the mobile order and pay and the loyalty program and things like, you know, he always has this consumer brand loyalty type of mindset going into everything. And when we were really talking about it, that's where our original thesis came from, these play to earn mechanics mixed with how this could relate to consumer brands and specifically loyalty.
00:14:50
What was the AHA moment for you. And Adam and how did you formulate. It where you were like, man, I really think Starbucks would do this? Yeah, it's interesting. The relationship with Starbucks was very interesting.
00:15:08
Obviously, Adam, having worked there in a C suite capacity for many years, had a really great relationship with Howard Schultz. And at the time, Howard was not at Starbucks anymore. He was on the board, but he was not running the show. But he was interested in what Adam was doing with Forum Three, and specifically Web Three. So we had had talks with them and our other co founder, Andy Sack.
00:15:37
He and Adam had had dinners with Howard and we're kind of explaining all the things that Web Three can do and that was kind of how the original relationship formed. And then months later, Howard ended up going back to be the CEO of Starbucks as an interim for the third time. And he kind of then tapped us on the shoulder and was very interested in doing it. So that's how the relationship formed. But the structure of the thesis really.
00:16:07
Came from, okay, what if you take digital collectibles as a form of earning in the scope of a brand that has collectibility and you create this immersive loyalty experience out of it, where it's not as much transactional like the traditional program is it's more experiential community based. Things like that. Going to divert a little bit towards. You'Ve built Starbucks, Odyssey. You have a strong foundational team that really thinks about rewards consistently.
00:16:45
CPG, like we've spent a ton of time building our own rewards program as well. In a different vein, across Web Three. Where do you feel like there is a really easy low hanging fruit opportunity and then also where do you feel. Like people get tripped up and fumble the easiest? Yeah, I think the low hanging fruit.
00:17:09
Opportunity to me is still the power of these communities. We see it with what we're doing with Starbucks. We can get into that in the community aspect, but I think that's really the ultimate power of what we're doing. Here in Web Three, there's ownership as. It relates to community and that is a really powerful thing.
00:17:35
Like when we're looking at kind of the current landscape and you see all these PFP communities and it's interesting because. The thing that they rally around is their community and the community around this. Shared collectible, which is the actual PFP. Right? And so the struggle that those same communities find is how do they kind.
00:18:02
Of reward their current user base while. Trying to expand out. Right? We see kind of doodles maybe doing that right now with what they're doing. They're trying to expand outside of the Web Three, but they have this trouble where they have these holders that are looking for more.
00:18:25
Right? So there's this constant push and pull on that side and it's like I think we have to get away from rewarding in terms of something that is just a financial asset because there's so. Much more in the world of rewards. There'S so much more in the world of what's actually considered perceived value. So I think the power is in these communities and the struggle is we're currently sitting here with a landscape that promotes this speculation number go up, rather than what the actual benefit of what you're receiving is.
00:19:05
Does that make sense? 100%, you're wearing a moonbirds hat. And so there's definitely been interesting conversations around what the moves are and what people are doing. My opinion is it really sort of. Distills down to unrealistic expectations and a bit of entitlement.
00:19:25
And I think that in both of. These instances, you're helping Starbucks run a pretty massive program and despite having the. Brand of like, there's limits, there's things that you'll go to them and they'll. Be like, we're not doing that. And I think most communities that's the.
00:19:45
Case, it's like, we should do X. It'S like, well, we're not going to do that because these things have implications. Across both real world cost, but also. Just aligning your brand to what you want to do. So I think I am thankful that.
00:20:00
We'Re sort of in this trough of. Disillusionment at a certain point because the people who are here are building for building's sake and really want to see things progress. And the folks that came before, a. Lot of them, it feels like, were just like trying to do a quick. Flip or know the next squiggle and.
00:20:22
Either they missed or they haven't extracted what they could out of the community. Like, I'm very proud of what CPG is doing. We've been doing a ton of interesting. Things consistently and planning it out and. Doing it over time.
00:20:37
And that comes with a lot of our team's effort. Totally. And what's really interesting in the realm of Starbucks is you've got this interesting demographic Venn diagram that's happening where you have some Web Three native folks, right, that are first into the program because they signed up on the waitlist back in September and those are kind of the first people we let in. And now you're starting to see the traditional rewards program members come in and you can see a very different expectation between the two, right? I think that's something that's a really interesting thing to dig into of why that is versus and who is in.
00:21:29
The space right now versus what we. All say that we're asking for, right, which is this mass adoption and it's this really interesting push and pull that's happening specifically right now in Web Three. You have a wide array of what. You would consider loyalty programs, right? Like, you've got credit cards that give.
00:21:50
Cash back rewards, you've got credit cards. That give points that effectively become cash. That then come back. You've got like a punch card, which is generally you do X amount of. Things and then you get rewarded with some sort of discount on the next thing, n plus one thing.
00:22:12
And then you've got points that then not just punch cards, but points that. It can accumulate that then unlock certain things. I think what's fascinating about Starbucks is. That it started its original loyalty program. Is very much about accumulating points and getting experiences that were based off of cash.
00:22:35
And now we've got and I'd love to hear how the polygon rollout has gone for you. But now you have this Starbucks, like you said, you have Normies coming in and there's mismatched expectations between the Web Three people and maybe the folks that. Are regular Starbucks contributors. How does that impact your messaging and how does that impact the structure of the actual reward? I mean, just to go back to the structure piece, what's really interesting about.
00:23:05
Odyssey is it's different than all of. Those things that you described in the traditional rewards world, right? So our view is that the consumer is changing, right? And what the consumer expects from a brand is changing. And loyalty in the past has been what a customer owes to a brand, right?
00:23:33
To get said discount, to get the next thing to do. All that. And I think where we're going is loyalty is now becoming something the brand owes to the customer, right? And so that's a switch, right? And so all of these brands are struggling to vie for attention from consumers to vy for participation and real deep connection with the consumer.
00:24:04
And the consumer is going to go wherever they're feeling most appreciated, rewarded, recognized, right? And so that's where this concept of kind of experiential loyalty comes in, which is what we're trying to accomplish here with Odyssey. And what's really interesting about that is. When you look at what the traditional. Loyalty program for Starbucks was, it's a very much like you said it's transactional.
00:24:35
I'm giving you Starbucks incremental visits and incremental spend, and in return you're essentially giving me something that amounts to discount. So there's some really interesting business cases. That a program like this solves versus what the traditional program is like. And then there's also these really interesting insights that Starbucks has about their users that kind of play really harmoniously with what we're doing in Odyssey. And so the first part is you've got this very transactional, huge scale loyalty program.
00:25:14
30 million monthly active users, right? So there's a very real cost associated with everything you do inside that program, right? Like anything that you do with Stars is your discount line, right? And that becomes very prohibitive to do certain things inside a program like that. Now introduce the feedback that Starbucks has from all of its biggest loyalty customers.
00:25:43
And what they are actually asking for. Is more what I talked about in. The beginning, more things like experiences, more things like access, more things like recognition. And so when you extrapolate that transactional version of a loyalty program into what we've created with Odyssey, you're really able to do that. And something I like to talk about.
00:26:10
A lot is these brands, huge brands. Like this have all of this intangible value. Meaning everybody in the world wants to work with a brand like Starbucks, partner with a brand like Starbucks, and that's artists, musicians, other companies, all of this stuff. And in the past that's looked very much like push marketing, right? Like Starbucks has a partnership with X.
00:26:37
And the only way you can derive value of that is consuming that content and buying more Starbucks. With a program like this, you're actually able to transfer some of that value to a customer and you're able to unlock that intangible brand value and drive some of that to the customer via an ownership mechanism, which is these digital collectibles. So it's this really interesting dynamic that's. Going on versus what the traditional loyalty. Program is, what most traditional loyalty programs are, which is this transactional linear thing, and then what the feedback they have on their customers is, and what we're trying to do, creating this experience with Odyssey.
00:27:21
So that's kind of like all these crazy dynamics in play versus what the traditional loyalty space looks like. This is where I ask for some alpha, where in terms of I ask jokingly, bobby Hundreds was very forthcoming in what his alpha was, but he had. That all planned up and I think pre scripted. But in terms of that collaboration and those opportunities, have you found that Starbucks. Very much sees the ease with which collaborations can happen?
00:28:02
Is it still something that they're getting their arms around in terms of how. Easy and or not easy? They're all challenging, but easier from a perspective of a collaboration. What's been the sense from Starbucks, Odyssey. And any other collaborations that you've experienced with them?
00:28:25
Yeah, it's a great question. It's part of the question I get. Asked a lot of why do you need blockchain for something like this? Right?
00:28:38
The blockchain piece of it makes collaborations. Makes integrations so much easier, whether that's from brand to brand or community to community or whatever. It's part of what's so appealing about doing something like this on chain. And one of the things that I use to kind of demonstrate this example is Starbucks at the same time ish that Odyssey launched, they launched their Rewards Together program. And this is kind of a Web Two program that they'd been working on for two years.
00:29:15
And they launched it with Delta. It's a very cool program. You can connect your Starbucks loyalty credentials to your Delta rewards credentials and anytime you spend in either of those ecosystems, you get rewarded. Very cool. Very cool thesis, very cool dynamic.
00:29:32
It took them two years to launch that with a blockchain based program. All you would have needed to do is have a wallet connect on either site, prove you are part of either one of these things, and you can kind of be creating these collaborations instantly, almost, right? So I use that example to showcase how, to your point, easy these collaborations can be. And so to your original question about does Starbucks see that, the answer is yes. And so one of the things that Forum Three does in the relationship with Starbucks is we are actually out there.
00:30:14
Sourcing collaborations with artists, with brands, with. Other companies, things like that, and bringing that to the table for the Starbucks team to kind of vet. And we're actually presenting ways that these things could be integrated into Odyssey. And we have this whole plan of kind of three or four different ways other brands, artists, musicians, things like that, can play in the Odyssey ecosystem. So you will definitely see some stuff like that in the future outside of maybe what you would expect from just.
00:30:50
A normal loyalty program. And I think that's really cool. And what's even cooler about that is it goes into this idea of that sharing that intangible brand value with a consumer. Meaning. You may have an opportunity to own this very cool, exclusive piece of art because you're part of this program and Starbucks has a relationship with an artist and because you've done X, Y and Z inside the ecosystem, you're eligible for this.
00:31:22
Right? Something like that is how it could play out. However, there's perceived value to that for some, but not others, right? And what's very cool about this program and the points being on chain is that if that's not your cup of tea, but it is for somebody else, you can transact, right? Or a cup of coffee you can transact.
00:31:47
Right? So there's a marketplace where you actually own these points. They're embedded in your NFTs that you're getting. And so if you're eligible, but that reward is not your bag, you can go and sell that to somebody who may find incredible value in something like that, which is a whole other dynamic of having a program like this, which is really unique. Also shout out to my amazing colleague Morgan, who is actually one of know, I call her the Godmother of Odyssey and she's running all of our collaborations, so she's crushing that right now.
00:32:28
So there's some cool stuff in store for Collabs in the future. Morgan, CPG is waiting a give us a ring. Yeah. In our own experience with our rewards project and product, I came to it. As this I'm a pretty substantial gamer.
00:32:48
In a certain sense of not just. Video games, which I spend a bunch of time with my kids with, but really like board games. And gamification is something I love. I've designed board games in the past. It ultimately comes down to a really great game, has to have a very.
00:33:07
Well crafted end game. And I don't know that loyalty rewards programs will ever have an end game, but I think one of the things that you find when you play games. Over and over and over again, and. You certainly see this in the wider spectrum of web three. And even there's Twitter ads for that points guy who tells you how to.
00:33:28
Really game the system to the Nth degree. How much planning and how much research do you spend for each event in the intended outcomes and then figuring out. What the unintended outcomes are because people are going to find a hedge. And no matter what you do and you see it in web three, you see it in blur, you see it all over the place, they find some. Sort of wedge and they drive it hard.
00:33:55
And then the thing that we've found. With Blockchain is there's no reversibility in it intentionally. And that has significant impact on how you build a game because you can't undo things. What was the process and how do you think about that in the web. Three, which is effectively Gamification of Odyssey and what's happened?
00:34:19
Yeah, it's a really interesting question. I think this is where.
00:34:26
The partnership. Of Forum Three and Starbucks really comes into play because Starbucks loyalty team has incredible experience with kind of how to manage these points universes, right. And they've seen kind of how people will game the system on their normal rewards program. Right. So they had some really interesting insights and then from our side it's, okay, well, how can those things be exploited via the blockchain piece.
00:34:59
Like you said, I think one of the problems that a lot of these programs have and it's kind of a cat and mouse game, we saw it with TOPSHOT and things like that, is multi accounting is probably the easiest way to kind of skirt some of these guardrails that we've put in place. And that's always going to be a cat and mouse game because you run the risk of kind of alienating people who are doing things the right way and there's always going to be people that try to game the system, right? And so I think that's probably one of the things that is hardest to manage in a program like this. But outside of that, we've put some. Really interesting dynamics in place of how.
00:35:51
You can in order to really maximize. The program, you need to be really participatory, right? So there's not an easy way to get the most rewards from.
00:36:12
Passive actions, right? So what I mean by that is it's not an easy thing to bot, right? You can't participate in a Drop without having an Odyssey account. You can't participate in a Drop without being certain you actually need to have a Starbucks loyalty rewards program account to even be in Odyssey. So that's been a nice buffer, right?
00:36:42
You can only use your information once. So even if you had 100 rewards accounts, well, that means you would need to actually make purchases on those to be at the top tier. So there's levels and things like that that we've put guardrails in place for. I think it's a fascinating question because. It'S the thing that we spent so.
00:37:04
Much time prior to launch thinking about on how you can structure this in a way that we've seen other programs be exploited, right? And so you can never get it 100% right. You're always going to have some people that find, like you said, a wedge and drive it. But because of some of those initial guardrails, like having to have a rewards account, having the top level tiers be really only accessible from the most participatory users because it's an experiential program, those have kind of kept it pretty in check. We're also doing some interesting things with the points universe, right?
00:37:42
So there's kind of this idea of annual points versus lifetime points, right? So you're going to see stuff like that in the future and that kind of puts in a very unique guardrail. But it also, like you said, alludes to endgame, right? So it doesn't necessarily just happen within an annual bubble. There's this lifetime idea which is aspirational and keeps you going and keeps you participating.
00:38:08
So, yeah, it's a fascinating question, but I think we've tried to do a good job at stopping most of that. What makes a great game is not. Just the perception of fairness, but also the enforcement of it. I think people like, I'm like, what's your favorite game? And like, oh, I love Monopoly.
00:38:29
I'm like Monopoly is like the worst game ever. And Monopoly is the worst game ever for a lot of really when you think about it, very obvious reasons when. You play it's like when one person. Has the dice, they're the only people. That are actually moving.
00:38:44
It's totally randomized. So there's not actually really strategy other than the simplest strategy, which is like. Buy everything that you land on and. Then you get all the way to the end of the game. And the rules are like, well, I'm in third place and I don't like.
00:38:58
The person in first place, so I'm going to sell all my stuff to the second place person and make them the winner. And that is like it's the worst. You spend like 4 hours playing Monopoly and if you do like speed Monopoly, like my cousins and colleagues do, it. Doesn'T take that long. But it is like a poorly crafted.
00:39:17
Game and it's got all the stuff. But when you play like a really. Well crafted game where you never feel out of it, you always have like. Even as you get very close to the end game, there's some low probability things that you can maneuver to have. It work, but it's a long shot.
00:39:35
So the people who have been playing. It well genuinely have a higher percentage. Of winning, but not like it's not a lock. And that's what those elements, bringing them to all sorts of games, you never. Feel out of it with Starbucks.
00:39:48
You miss something, okay, but you can still catch up. That lifetime goal, which I'm excited to see that roll. Like those are all critical elements of this fairness in the game because people. Don'T want to show up and be. Like, oh, I'm just going to lose.
00:40:03
No one likes that feeling. Totally.
00:40:08
One of the really interesting things of. Odyssey is that you've got not only kind of there's a way to participate for everybody, right? So there's the way to participate in which you're only doing journeys and you're really never having to buy any of these limited edition stamps. And if that's the way you want to play, there will be something for you, right. You will feel like you've earned the rewards that you're getting.
00:40:40
And then there's the kind of power user version of playing the game where you want to be the top tier level. There's many ways for you to get there and those top tier rewards are going to be worth it for you, right? And so that's what I love about the way that this is constructed is. We wanted to give people, I think, two things. We wanted to, one, meet people where they are, which is buying coffee from Starbucks, right?
00:41:10
So that's what they do every day. How can this fit into that in a way that feels natural to their normal cadence with the brand? And then two, whether you're the power user or kind of the passive just journeygoer, there's something for you in the program. Yeah, show up every day, get your coffee, keep going. That's right.
00:41:35
And so one of the initial journeys is called the Coffee Heritage Journey. And what's super interesting about the way that this works, if you're not familiar, the TLDR on Odyssey is just you log in, it's associated with your Starbucks rewards login. So that's how the transactions can be tracked. So anything you do in store is able to be tracked through Odyssey that way, which is really cool because that allows us to get really creative with the types of things we do on journeys. And obviously you can see a bunch of future use cases for that, both like IRL and digital.
00:42:19
So you log in, you complete these journeys. The journeys are typically four to five different kind of quest checkpoints. They include things like watching branded content, doing kind of fun starbucks Odyssey or Starbucks Trivia. And then there's typically something know, trying coffees. And so this Heritage Journey, the first one that you see when you log.
00:42:47
In is buy a Starbucks coffee every. Week for five weeks in a row. And I use this one as an interesting example of the kind of like. Meet people where they are because it's. Not buy five coffees this week, it's not buy five coffees today.
00:43:07
Right. It's not meant to be a forcing. Function of something that feels unnatural to you down your throat to get this reward, right? It's like, oh, well, I go to. Starbucks twice a week.
00:43:20
This is, this is, this is an easy thing. And that's what I love about it. It's not difficult. It's about like that's it, it's not like these crazy things that feel unnatural to you. It's really authentic to how you interact with the brand if you're a Starbucks fan.
00:43:43
So you might get somebody who comes into the program who is a Web three native person but not a Starbucks fan. And they're like, well, why would I want to do this? I'm like, well you wouldn't. This is for Starbucks people, you know what I mean? And we get a lot of that.
00:43:56
But we also get people that have never interacted with Starbucks before coming in. And saying how much it's changed the. Way they interact with the brand, which. Is really what the end goal is. That's fantastic to hear.
00:44:11
It shows. At the largest sense for. Everybody in Web Three. I just want to thank you because. You have a giant brand who is.
00:44:22
Approaching Web Three in this very pragmatic way, leveraging the technology as it's really intended to be with a solid steward and a responsible steward for the brand. Which is ultimately people love Starbucks, I love Starbucks. What you've accomplished is really inspiring. And so I just want to say thank you and keep going. And then I want to turn it.
00:44:49
Slightly to you're an entrepreneur, you took that bold step, you quit your job. You went for it, and then we've. Got a whole slew of folks that. Are building in our accelerator. What would you say to them at.
00:45:07
This point in this real bear of a market? Both of your experiences in hitting it sort of probably a little bit more. In the bowl, but now in this, how you persevere through it. Yeah, I think there's a couple of things there. And just like, if you go back to the beginning of my story, when we started coming in in 2017 was like coming in in the middle of 2021.
00:45:37
Right. Those were bull markets. 2017 December was when Bitcoin hit its 20,000 all time high prior to last cycle. Right. And then it went and fell all the way back over the next two years to 3000, right around COVID.
00:45:55
Right. So we have seen this cycle before and we're in another one. So if this is your first cycle. My advice would be it gets better. But this is the time that you want to be building.
00:46:14
Right. So one of the I would say great benefits of my journey was the. Fact that I was creating content. And the reason for that is, if I wasn't doing it, if I didn't have a reason to kind of stick around and show up every day, I would have potentially been like the thousands and thousands of others that came in, thought it was a bubble left, wasn't paying attention, and then just come back when it hits again. And that's not how you win if you're a builder.
00:46:51
If you're a builder, this is the time where you're pushing product, you're establishing yourself. So that way when the cycle comes. Back around, you're here and people will find you. And it's not the people that build in the bull. They might be opportunistic, but they're not the ones that typically end up sticking around.
00:47:14
So I would say it's more persevere. Right. And I would also say that we're. In this weird time where we're in this bear market and the topic of AI is all the rage and it feels almost like the Web Three balloon, the air has been let out. I could tell you from just places I've been and people we've talked to that that's not the case.
00:47:41
And so while it may feel like everybody's looking some other way and that Web Three is dead, it's not the case. You're seeing major brands exploring this space, looking to things like what we did at Starbucks as examples. And I would say that what's cool. About what we've done with Starbucks is it's giving a pointer to these other brands. It's giving credibility to the space in a place where know, talked earlier on the show, where sometimes it feels like we're just a bunch of gamblers.
00:48:21
Right. And that's how people see the space. But doing things like what Nike is doing with Dot Swoosh and what Starbucks has done with Odyssey, it really gives these credibility pointers. And so I would also just say as a piece of advice is, one, is just don't stop. This is the time you want to be building because you'll be here when the cycle turns and when all the attention is back on us.
00:48:46
And then two, it's not dead. And don't necessarily chase the shiny object. I don't think the AI stuff, you should be learning that and integrating it into what you do. But these Web Three tools are only going to be more important as the proliferation of the AI stuff happens. Right.
00:49:08
So don't give up either, I think is the two things. Joe, I really appreciate all the feedback. And all the stories that you've shared with us. We're going to close it up here in a couple of minutes. What's coming up for Forum Three in the next year, and then what do you see in that long term cycle?
00:49:28
Like, where do you want Forum Three to be in a few years from now? And aspirationally what do you have cooking? Yeah, I think what you'll see from. Forum Three is you're going to see. Us implement a lot of the things.
00:49:43
That we've been able to initially put. Into our thought process with Odyssey and our learnings from Starbucks Odyssey. So a lot of what's happening at. Starbucks Odyssey has validated our original thesis. Right.
00:49:59
We have this thought process around community ownership, gamification and storytelling. And I think you're going to see us really lean into those things in a big way and what we're going to do with our own projects and platforms. Right, so I think we're going to take those learnings and build something of our own that incorporates all of those core things that we believe as Forum Three and that we're seeing in Odyssey. I think one of the coolest takeaways from Odyssey is how these communities will rally around a brand and create with that brand. And we see it all the time in the Odyssey community.
00:50:53
People are using tools and creating art with the brand, which is something that. Has kind of blown our minds to see. And so we're going to lean into those learnings that we've taken away from Odyssey around community ownership, gamification, storytelling. We're going to eventually launch our own platform. It may be something a little different than you might expect from us, but I think it's going to be really cool and that's the long term for us too.
00:51:25
Is I think our unique insight is. How Web Three can drive all of. These really unique customer engagement storytelling methods and how that relationship can really be deepened. And then how brands can call on those communities in ways they've never done.
00:51:51
The Starbucks in a Starbucks example real. Quick, is one of the things that was hardest for us to work with. Them on was the community. And it was because they never had. A community like this before.
00:52:11
Everything is social. It's one way. It's megaphone communication rather than this real time active thing. Charles Schultz wasn't dropping into the discord to talk to folks. Well, he wasn't, but there are people from Starbucks in that discord, definitely every so.
00:52:32
But it was kind of a scary thing for them, right? They'd never had that. And what's amazing is, if you ask the Starbucks team now, what they would. Think the biggest asset they have with Odyssey is. I think a lot of them would say the community.
00:52:50
And it's because of things like this user generated content that's coming out of the community, this incredible feedback loop that they have with the community in terms of the platform and benefits and rewards and the brand in general. And so we're taking those learnings and we're going to create something pretty cool out of that. Joe, again, thank you so much for joining us. We're excited to see what Forum Three. Has cooking up next.
00:53:18
Would love to just stay in touch and bring you back when we have other things that you want to talk about. And I really appreciate your very unique. Perspective on how to pull it together. I mean, community gamification, ownership and storytelling. And the order wasn't the exact way you put it, but those four tenets are a beautiful summarization of what the core of a loyalty program should be.
00:53:43
And I'm excited to see what Forum Three does and hear about the next big brand you bring on. Thank you so much for joining us today. Thanks so much for having me. This was a blast. I appreciate it.
00:53:53
And shout out to the CPG community. This was really fun. Thank you. And that's where we have to end it for today. If you want to check out the full Q and A and learn more about joining Club CPG, visit cryptopackagegoods.com.
00:54:08
Thanks to all our G and Pop members for making these kinds of events possible. Crypto Podcast Goods is produced by Genius Media, a division of Crypto Packaged Goods.