In a market where things are constantly changing and you have to be responsive to that, Bobby Hundreds shares his insights on how to build a brand and endure the cycles of thriving and surviving. Recorded on October 26, 2022 for Crypto Packaged Goods Genius Call series.
Bobby Hundreds is co-founder of LA0based streetwear brand The Hundreds as well as a designer, illustrator, and author of two books - This Is Not a T-Shirt and NFTs Are a Scam / NFTs Are the Future.
In this episode we talk about:
1. The role of cycles in creative work and business
2. The importance of being resourceful and adaptive in difficult times
3. The value of art and creativity in the marketplace
Follow bobby at https://twitter.com/bobbyhundreds
Follow Club CPG at https://twitter.com/CPGCLUB
To learn more about Crypto Packages Goods, visit https://www.cryptopackagedgoods.com/
Mike Piro
GM. GM. We are live. We have a tremendous show today. I am so excited for this. So, our guest today, unless you have been living under a rock in NFT land, you will know who Bobby Hundreds is. Bobby has launched the hundredths brand. He's launched the NFL T project. Adam Bomb Squad. Plus he's written a book. He's got another one coming. The first one is this is not a T shirt. He has an annual family style get together in La to celebrate family and food and he is joining us today. Graciously. I would also like to note he is also a Genesis member of Club CPG. So, Bobby, thank you so much for joining us. How's it going?
Bobby Hundreds
I'm good, Mikey. Thank you so much for having me.
Mike Piro
Well, I really appreciate we got to talk a little bit before this call, but we're saving all the juicy goodness for our builders club. So the Builders club launched in September, and I have to say that I'm going to give a quick kind of diet try before you get into your expositions here. I really found the people who are in Club CPG having this common value set is what totally attracted me to it. And you're one of the Genesis members and have that value set of like, how do we help people? And it comes through loud and clear in the Hundreds community. Like, you're so good at the community part and I'm just really excited to get through kind of all of your insights. So we're going to be focusing on our builders club and really advice that you have because you have this really long wealth of knowledge. And so for our builders, we have this macroeconomic condition like crazy. We have Twitter and we have all this dialogue going on on NFC, Twitter, and we have the Web Three situation where the Barricade market is a time for builders, but it's stressful as hell. And you've been through all of these, so we're going to start with the cycles that are coming through and how they apply. And can you just start us off on the mindset you're in for the hundreds and how that's relevant to what a builder is facing now and just where you started on this adventure?
Bobby Hundreds
Yeah, it's funny. Mikey said that it's so stressful in a bear market and my immediate reaction to that was, yeah, but it was pretty stressful in the bull market, too. And obviously we would all want a bull market and it's better for everyone's pocketbooks and there's momentum, it's energetic, it's exciting. I don't find those periods to be the most creative. I don't feel them to be like, the most intellectually stimulating, the most rewarding, even. I almost feel like especially within Web Three, because everything is moving so fast that we're just playing catch up the entire time. And so for me, as an artist and a creator, those seasons are quite difficult. I have ADHD there's too many too much whacka Mole going on. There's always another quick $300 to $3,000 you can make if you drop everything right now and just do that. And so I understand that the bear market can be pretty discouraging. There are moments of it that are quite hopeless and dark, and we all are very aware of that by this point. And we're only like a few months into this, but I think we should spin it on its head and remember that. And I talk about this in my first book, that building a brand and the life cycle just of a career, like a full life, is an even composition of thriving and surviving and thriving and surviving. And we don't know how long those seasons are going to be, those seasons of thriving where everything just seems to be working out. When momentum is in your corner, it's like a really, really beautiful feeling. You can do almost anything, and it works, and it's been received well. And then there are going to be moments of your career or your life or moments of crypto where you're just trying to survive and keep your head above water, and you really can't have one without the other. But within those survival periods, it is so imperative for you to be resourceful, to be adaptive, to be responsive and even reactive, if you will, to market forces around you, to culture, being sensitive to culture, being sensitive to conversation and just how the climate feels. These are the moments where you really take stock of what it is that you're doing, what's important to you, what the world wants and what the world needs and attending to that right? And we just don't have a lot of time in bull markets to appreciate the creative process. We don't want to let things breathe. We don't want things to happen organically or on a human level. We don't want them to be authentic. We want things to be manipulated, and we want them to happen now, in our time, but nothing good ever comes of that in the long run by things happening within our control. We have to almost surrender to the fact that marketplaces and these industries were really in ecosystems, that we have very, relatively, very little control over the circumstances and the outcomes of our work. Another thing that I talk about in that book, this is on Tshirt by Memoir plug is early on in my career, and this is how a young person thinks. We're building the brand of the hundreds. And I'm starting off my design work, and we have momentum, and everything is just working right. Very successful. In the World Dies, Inc. 30 and 30 magazine, new York Times magazine cover story, all the media celebrating us. Wherever I go in the world, I'm being recognized and acknowledged for the work. And it's so easy, and it's such a young mindset to believe that that was all happening by virtue of my work and my contributions. And it's attached to the egomania and the narcissism of many artists, including myself and creators, that we are building these universes where we are God and we are king. And so we're thinking all this success that's manifesting, that's pouring out of it is largely due to our own influence. And I'm not trying to diminish our role in those types of outcomes, but I think it is smarter and wiser to realize that this is all happening within the context and within a larger picture. There are things that are happening thousands of miles away that affect how my product sells today that I have nothing to do with. And that was a very humbling realization five to ten years into my journey where I looked up and I was like, oh, that sweatshirt that sold out that season, it was a pretty good design, but I just happened to be on trend. And the one who was really driving the trend at that time was someone like a Kanye or in our world, some mainstream rapper that was essentially dictating the trend. And even that trend that he was adopting was maybe determined by really cool kids on the streets or a Stylist, let's say. And so in my mind, I'm like, oh, everybody wanted that sweatshirt because I designed it and because we did such a good job of producing it. And it's never just that. We live in a very dense cobweb of an ecosystem where everyone is connected, everything is influencing each other. And once you realize that, I think that you just have a greater humility and an appreciation for the work and just understanding that when there's these seasons of remarkable success, that you should celebrate that, but also remember that you played one part of that story. Just like when things fall apart and you want to blame yourself for like, I failed. It's not necessarily true. What we are called to do, I believe, especially as designers and artists and entrepreneurs, is just do the work. Do the work that is meaningful to you, that you feel called to do that really galvanizes you, and it's spirited. Do that work and just remember that it's going to be you're going to have to endure these cycles and seasons, because that's just how the world's always been. And things are probably speeding up now more than ever.
Mike Piro
Well, there's so much to unpack there. I think what attracted me to CPG and Chris and Jamie specifically, and what you've alluded to is this long term view of how you build culture, product experiences, and I think what we've experienced, at least I remember, you know, I'm going to date myself, but I remember when inflation was higher than the last time, right? And I remember when 2001 crashed. I remember when 2008 crashed. Those are experiences that I think a lot of folks that are in this newer crypto space don't have necessarily the experience drawing upon it. And so when everything is up and to the right, that's your expectation. It's kind of like, I don't know if you're a basketball fan, but I live in the Bay Area, but I grew up in New York. Every kid here thinks that the Golden State Warriors are going to win the championship every year or at least be in the finals, but that's just not reality, right? History proves that that's not the case. And it takes some joy when they don't actually do that. But those lessons of, like, sticking to building, really trusting the process, which is hard, it's a crucible, like you've said, and you've alluded to so many different points of just crossing through difficult times in your book, which is, this is not a tshirt another show. And I think that those are really critical aspects. We've got a long time to go do things. You've got to trust that process. It's not going to be easy, and those two anchor you to just keep moving forward. It's beautiful. And I think you're one of the reasons, one of the many reasons is like, you're a testament to it. You stood by like, no, I know this is what I want to do. I think it's also fascinating because you don't come across as, like, to me anyway, as the egomaniac artist. But we haven't worked together too much yet.
Bobby Hundreds
Trust me, I am.
Mike Piro
Well, at least you're self aware, right? Yeah, we had a brief conversation about.
Bobby Hundreds
Yeah, I've heard enough from my wife and my staff have to put up with me that I definitely have an ego.
Mike Piro
Yeah, I think a healthy ego is not a bad thing. Being self aware about it's probably more important. So you have this tremendous streetwear experience of building this community and this brand with the hundreds. And we've entered into NFCs, have entered the chat, right. Like crypto, Twitter, and Adam bomb squad is amazing. So talk to me about what intrigued you with NFPs and then sort of some of your big lessons, more specifically recently, as to, like, has business models have had to really transform. So where did you start and then what's the thing that you've noticed the most more recently?
Bobby Hundreds
Yes. I got into NFCs at the end of 2020, and I believe my friend Trevor from Friends With Benefits had retweeted a people story. It was when he had done a three and a half million dollar sale selling digital art. And I was writing about this recently for this forthcoming book that I have, but it was even hard for me to remember what it was like in the time before NFG's. And many of you who have been radicalized and immersed yourself into web three, it's really hard to remember how you used to consider this before you understood the tech. But I think if I'm recalling correctly, I was looking at it, and number one, I was insanely confused and I was having a really hard time wrapping my mind around it. And I needed it to be explained to me many times, primarily because when it comes to tech stuff, I'm pretty allergic to It. When it comes to finance, even more. And crypto was tech and finance together and I was like, this world is really not for me. But what is speaking to me is this aspect of art and design being offered and bought and owned in a way that I've never quite considered before or appreciated before. And so I think that was probably what really piqued my interest was looking at it from the side of an artist who was trying I'm an artist and always trying to get my work seen in different ways and received in rooms that I wouldn't necessarily be invited to. And one of the first things I realized that it was helping me to understand the tech was being a photographer. I do many mediums of art and one of them is photography. And I remember trying to shop my photography around through my book publisher and my book agent. I was trying to get shows here in galleries in La. And was constantly being told not only that my work wasn't good enough, but also that they just weren't making many photo books or they weren't doing a lot of these photo shows anymore. And I was like, well then what do I do with these? I have a lifetime's worth of photography and film from when I was a teenager. Like, where do I put these? And the response I received was putting them where everyone else puts them. You put them on Instagram and it really upset me because I was giving this work away for free. And there is a pretty cool aspect of that of democratizing content in the last ten to 15 years of the internet where material was just allowed to be shared freely and wantingly. I think there's something very cool and pure about it. But I knew that my photography was as beautiful, if not more valuable than like the t shirts I was making everyday and selling or the pants that I was advertising through Instagram and making a profit off of. So why is it that this work is being devalued or just not even being offered a price tag in the marketplace? Whereas my t shirts and my clothing, my street wear is it just didn't make any sense to me. I'm like, this means just as much. This is personal. It's my art. I have an audience for it, I know that wants to buy it. How can we accomplish this? And that's when NFDS really clicked for me. Whereas it's like I can directly circumvent that gallery person depth, book publisher, book agent. I can directly go to my photography fan and sell them something that they can prove that they own. And not only that they own, but that they have the power to sell it if they also wish to sell it. And so they know that there is a financial value associated with that art. And not that art needs money or a price tag in order to have meaning. But it definitely makes it feel substantial. Right? And it definitely makes it work and move around the marketplace and an industry, and it can build around it. And so that's what it was for me, was, like, understanding what it could do for me as a photographer and then what it could seeing it from that lens, how I can use it to help other artists and designers and photographers as well.
Mike Piro
This ownership concept of a digital item is the simplest way for me to explain it to my friends and family. It's like, you own it, but it's a digital thing. Simple as that. And I want to ask you now a question about the evolution of Adam bomb squad and did this amazing activation in New York. You've got Family Fest, which is a real world event, and we're constantly talking in the builders club about, I think you had last week, a bomb squad talk about digital and trying to rename that the better word for it to our builders. What would you love to see in terms of an ease of use or a dream scenario for you that combines physical and digital items for Adam bomb squad or for your current brand? Yes, because we have all these folks working on protocols and experiences and drops, and they're building furiously. So what are some things that you would love to see emerge in this industry?
Bobby Hundreds
I think we're still pontificating on theorizing on what that can be, and I think I'm also waiting for a lot of tech to fall into place in order to facilitate some of those visions and ideas. I don't think we're quite there yet. There are a lot of these digital startups and creators and brands that are coming up right now. For lack of a better word, it's physical meets digital. I feel like it's been the hottest topic in my corner web three over the last four to five months. I would say every two to three days, someone else hits me up with, hey, what are you doing with NFC chips? Or, I want to talk to you about my company. We're doing something with NFC chips and Tshirts, and that's great. There is a part of it that doesn't really resonate with me that well just because I don't see the need necessarily for a lot of these NFC chips. It seems to be that the primary motivation is for authentication on the blockchain, which is cool. I don't see that as being a friction in fashion as much as you would think. There are definitely some brands and designers and goods that want to have their consumers want to confirm that this is the actual one before they buy it. I get it, but for the most part, a lot of people who own clothing are seeking out clothing, aren't really looking for the authentication factor. And so I don't know if that's it for me. Maybe I'm just not seeing it too far out. But the NFC shifts are kind of like, I feel like halfway there and it may lead to something pretty amazing down the road. So in the meantime, the way that we've been looking at it with medavers fashion. I've written extensively about this topic in essays throughout the year, and I'm compiling them all into this book that's coming out in the spring is to just be a brand in the physical world that we continue to be. And continue to build this legacy and this reputation, build relationships with a strong community and also just welcome and integrate them into all the digital aspects of what we do. Whether that's opening up a metaverse which we seek to do, a metaverse that's retailfriendly and that is shoppable, which is something that I really think is going to be our potential metaverse. Not so much of the video game approach. It's going to be more of a consumerfriendly metaverse where you'll be able to shop in our store, buy product, we are connected with shopify and then that product will come to your door. Just a better online shopping experience than what we have right now. With flat UI UX of apps. If you think of like a traditional food app, they look like pretty sterile menus. But the dining experience is rich because you're appreciating and absorbing the design of the interiors. You're hearing the people in the space you run into, your friends get to look at food. And so we want to you know, I see that as being a future of something more physical and digital with like how the metaverse is going to work in terms of food ordering, retail and whatnot. So our goal right now is just understanding that most of our community still is really caring about physical products. They want physical clothes and they care about physical fashion. They're getting more into digital goods. But we are still very soft and starting slow with these NFTs. And I think these NFCs actually do accomplish a lot more than people give them credit for. They are a source of identity, they are a source of status, they are a social badge. They do express a lot about who you are as a person and they are also just really fun collectible that when you first get into NFTs, you're not necessarily always like looking at your wallet, checking out the PFP or some of the art that you might have. But as you get deeper into space, like, I do, like any time I open my wallet and it takes me a few steps open my wallet, but eventually that will be easier to it will just be integrated into our Instagram accounts or the apps that we check every day. But whenever I do open up my wallet and I look through and I'm scrubbing through some of the NFTs, I'm like, man, I still love this. And it still hits a part of my brain that says that this is as meaningful to me and is very vivid and real to me as this art piece behind me by Anna Park or like these Huff, Nike Dunks or, you know, whatever it is, like, it's exactly the same. And so I also still look at my NFT's every day and I'm like, I don't even know the need to do this marriage of physical and digital in order for this to feel any more real. Like, we are very much immersed in digital environments and digital realities where this is real to me.
Mike Piro
So much to COVID there. It all comes back and what I've heard from you is it all comes back to the feelings you're trying to evoke and that's the community evokes a feeling.
Bobby Hundreds
It most definitely does.
Mike Piro
But stepping into a restaurant also like all of these things that we've gone very hard on optimizing, like you mentioned the Flat UI to optimize, how quickly can I get somebody checked out? And there's a place for that. But there's also the aspect of like when you open your wallet and the joy that you feel in it. If you can harness that, that's something that you really need to latch onto as a community because that is what's going to keep people coming back to opening their wallet every day or coming back to all the wonderful things. It's really quite profound the way that you're looking at it. And I'm all in on a hundred th Metaverse.
Bobby Hundreds
Yeah, I'll beta test. This is Alf. I don't think we've mentioned really anywhere else, but we're recreating our Fairfax neighborhood in the Metaverse right now with our friends at some place. It's mobile Metaverse. It will also be usable on desktop and we're like building out our stores how we imagine it in the Metaverse B. We'll eventually be having partners that will open up spaces there and it's just really meant for shopping and socializing more than like, gamification. But Mikey, real quick, just rewinding a little bit about you touched on something that reminded me that earlier this week I was having a conversation with Sean Williams. He's an artist who's a part of Atom Bomb Squad but also has made a name for himself in NFT. And we were talking about what it will take to onboard the Next generation or the next chapter of Web three users. I almost feel like we've hit a little bit of a ceiling. The people who are in are in. The people who aren't in have pretty much decided they don't want to do this right now. And so what is that going to be, that next step? What is it going to be that bridge to get into the next group and what we were saying is that I think up until now, the people who've come into this space, we're looking at it almost like the way that I did, pretty logically, pretty practically profitably, profit oriented. If you're looking at it as a trader or a flipper or business person, an investor, BC 816 Z, you're looking at the space, seeing how much money can be made. And we got all those people. And I think the next generation of people who need to be convinced, need to be convinced emotionally, right? And so I think we're going to have to start figuring out ways to bring people into NFTs, where it's not going to be enough to say, hey, you're going to make $2,000. That brought in a certain demo of people. And some people are very motivated. We all know how different personality types are. There are certain personalities that are actually more attracted to financial reward than others. And some people need more of an emotional reward. And I don't think we've provided that enough yet with NFT's and Web Three, unless it was frustration, frustration, anger, FUD, those kinds of emotions. But as far as the emotions that really will satiate your soul and nostalgia, sentimentality, and love and excitement that I feel, for example, when I look at like, cool sneakers or when I look at art, I never buy art thinking of how much I'm going to sell it for. I buy art because it's like, oh my God, something about that is evocative. And so it's going to be more of that. That's going to be something that's going to be desperately needed in the space. Instead of influencers like myself or just business, people go on spaces saying, flip this, flip that, numbers, numbers, numbers. People are not going to this next wave of people are not going to be that won't appeal to them 100%.
Mike Piro
I do a side hustle, but that's not important right now. The idea of building joyful, memorable experiences is at the core. And all of our builders club, we sort of had this shift, as far as I can tell, in that the NFC was the center of a lot of things and just kind of like certain people and their political campaigns erasing certain words. We've done the same thing with Web Three in that we've sort of wiped away that. And it's like, it's a digital collectible, it's an experience of membership, but the experience around all of that is unique and different under the covers. But you still have to hit all the high points, right? Like apple made changes yesterday. Guess what? You still got to play ball there, so you better figure it out. And I think this point of emotions is one where how would you relate it to one of the points in your career? Like, you sat down, you closed some stores, you then sort of like, rebranded Adam bomb squad or like Sunset it. How do you think emotion plays into your decision making on the product side, like you're charting a course in direction and what advice would you give our builders club right now in NFCs? You should be thinking about this.
Bobby Hundreds
Yeah, I think it's a very delicate in terms of running a successful brand and business branding, for whatever reason, I've always associated more with my creative and emotional side and business has been more of the practical logistical side. And I think in order to run both successfully, you do need to know how to walk a delicate balance. Right. And these days, probably just because of the abundance of information and education we have access to through the Internet, through podcasts, through all types of literature, people feel much smarter than they actually are. But we all have more of an inflated sense of our intelligence and so we are championing that side of our brain and that side of our experiences more than the emotional appeal. It's something and I don't want to get into politics more or less, but even with politics I see I'm a liberal, so let's just get that out of the way. But even how the Democrats try to appeal to their voters, a lot of it is just more intellectual and a lot more education based as opposed to appealing to the human senses, to emotions, to cultural experiences, to histories and personality, right? And so that's something that I feel like the left really gets wrong all the time. But I also see it a lot in Tech, and I see it a lot in NFPs and Web Three. And there's some very great projects out there that are really wonderful, brilliant projects, like couldn't be smarter, but they aren't emotional, they're not human. They aren't speaking or meeting people on a level where it's just like, how are you feeling today? And I know the touchyfeely stuff is just there's a little bit of an allergic reaction to that, especially in tech where everyone is very logical and everything is very deliberate and orderly. But you cannot forsake that part of the branding and business process, you need both. You need the practical side crunching numbers being struck smart and strategic data, right? You need that. But you also need to connect with people on a level where you remember what it's like just when they're feeling a certain kind of way. And I just feel like that is often neglected now in good business. And people think that, oh, if we just do this and we treat everything like a robot because computers treat everyone else like a robot, that it's going to be better. And I think in the short term, sure, it makes a little bit more money, but I don't think it's sustainable and it's definitely not enriching the rest of the world.
Mike Piro
That was extremely profound. We spoke a little bit before the call about how my therapist is saying I'm in this midlife crisis and we shared some. Things and all of the experience and feelings around it are what's propelling me forward. It's not the data that I'm collecting in my everyday life. It's exploring, like, what do I believe? What do I want to believe? Who believes it with me? And do I like that? And so this concept that you just put forward of that emotion around it and treating numbers are important, right? You still got to pay bills, put food on table. And also to really and truly motivate people to build that community, you have to be able to incentivize them in this emotional way. Beautiful.
Bobby Hundreds
100%. I think. You know what's really cool and I love is that we're in a bear market. We've been in this for a few months now. And so the people who are sticking around, if they really stuck to the data and the warning signs and the signal, the rational mind would be like, get out. Right? And a lot of those people did. But the people who are still listening to this or showing up every day are still holding out hope or working on projects. We never skipped a beat. We're still like working on NFCs every day we have another project coming out soon and everyone's was like, what are you doing dropping a collection right now? I'm like, I don't really care. Like I just I like making NFTs. I like selling them. I like seeing them out in the market. And that part of it is completely unreasonable, illogical. It makes no business sense, but it makes all the emotional sense because that's how much I believe in this space. And there's so many people there's enough people in the space right now who are still committing, who are still showing up for not only NFDS, but showing up for each other every day. That's what makes me bullish. I'm like, oh, we're going to be fine, because all the signs are pointing to get out, get out, get out. But we still continue to jump right back in and I don't know if do you surf at all? Are you surfing?
Mike Piro
I'm a New York transplant, so I like to have a late life. It's part of a midlife, we'll put it that way.
Bobby Hundreds
Awesome. Surfing is really interesting. If you watch surfers, especially the ones who are really impassioned about the sport, because what the ocean is doing is like Mother Nature is throwing people out, then get out. If you watch the momentum, like the actual current of the waves is like pushing everything to shore. If you sit in one place long enough, you'll get beat into the sand, right? But what humans and surfers do, they're constantly going back in. It's completely unreasonable and irrational. Makes no sense at all. But it's purely out of passion, business sense. It doesn't make any sense. You're going to get injured. You're going to drown. Mother Nature doesn't want you in here. Stay out of the ocean. You're meant to live on land. You're a human being. But as surfers, we're like, I don't know what it is. I love this so much. It doesn't make any sense that I'm going to keep jumping back into the tide. And I feel the same with crypto and NFCs when I look at it, I'm like, everything in this market right now is telling us to get out. The climate, the world, everything is telling us, get out. Our friends are like, what are you doing? Jump ship. Like, get out of there. You're losing all your money. And you're just like, yeah, I don't really care. It wasn't about the money. Every single person who's still in here, it really wasn't about the money. No matter how much you want to say, I don't believe you because if it's about the money, you would have left a long time ago. You're here not because of the money, but because you really believe in something greater. And hopefully with that money comes. But it's not just about the money.
Mike Piro
I believe in the promise of what web free and crypto puts forward in the world, rooted in all of my traumatic experiences from the past 20 years. And really just this idea of, like, I use this term a bunch, it's not mine. Admiral Stockdale was a prisoner of war, and he had this paradox. He was in Hanoi and he was tortured. He's like, you have to know exactly where you are all the time. You're getting beat up, you're getting your ass kicked. But you also have to hold the hope in your same space. And that's a really hard thing to do. And it's a paradox of terms because you could just be getting pummeled and then you're like, yeah, I'm getting pummeled. And I got to acknowledge that. But I also need to hold on to hope and never let go of it. And that's kind of like I referenced that a ton in my life in the past two years, but also in terms of where the markets are for NFCs and crypto. Just keep going.
Bobby Hundreds
And never give up that hope.
Mike Piro
So we've got a bunch of questions queued up now from the audiences is like, my favorite part.
Bobby Hundreds
Me too.
Mike Piro
I'm going to go to my phone here. This one is from Baston. What is your favorite channel tool to communicate with your community and why?
Bobby Hundreds
Oh, wow. So when I am delineating what community is to me, I don't look at a mass of people again, something I write extensively about. When I get asked, how do you build an audience? I don't think about, I'm going to convert the world. I actually don't want to ever do that. It's more about engaging with people one at a time. So the immediate answer to that question is, I just like eating dinners with people. And whether it's one person or five people or ten or 20, we throw family style, which is a food festival once a year. Next year I think it's going to be multiple times a year in order to eat with 100 people. This year we had 110 people show up on a Sunday, eat with 110 people at a time. So that's probably number one. I really love Inperson engagement, just to be able to feel all the nuances and see all the little details of the relationship. I think that's really important. Second to that, and I haven't been on it as much as I've been busy, but over the last couple of years I was very active on the community app, which is es